CAWA

Hi Ed,

DEC requirements are that bolts be installed to CAWA ethics which are the same ethics as anywhere else in NZ or Australia. Type of bolt is not specified, or fixing method, other than it's best practise. CAWA has a stock of 100mm stainless steel bolts with longer than normal thread for maximum glue adhesion ($4.00) each but P bolts, rings and fixed hangers are all fine as long as they are stainless steel and installed properly. Having some idea of your history I don't think that's an issue. GIMBs have the advantage they are less obtrusive, but it is a quarry. Some people will love you if put in rings of some kind and you'll get at least some statements about being old fashioned if you install GIMBs. There are still a few people using bash in carrots. Not many.

By the way, I have spoken to the ranger from DEC about Sunday's little effort and they apparently do require us to book. We had a committee meeting tonight and none of us had heard of it. We will be mentioning to the department that it's not really a good idea to not tell us what's going on but there you go. It happened and it got ugly. The rest of the commercial operators in the Perth that I've dealt have been great people and with them it just wouldn't have happened that way.

The office for taking the bookings is open everyday and it's a simple matter of ringing them and they will tell you the pass word. If more than 40 people have booked, they'll say no. There was no where near 40 people there Sunday. For everyone else who might read this, we are hoping to get more details tomorrow and will post them along with the phone number, which is all you really need.

Cheers,

Toc

cheers Toc, yes a very bizzare situation on sunday, i was starting to wonder if having raving abseil instructors tossing ropes and curses on climbers was normal.. ;-)

if you do find some spare rock, please please please do not use carrots or GIMBs... if CAWA will sell you bolts for 4$ ur better spending that 4$ on a hangered expansion. www.climbinganchors.com.au is your friend

no problemo Mike,

no intention of using GIMB/carrots seems a bit errr retro.... have my own stash of ss trubolts/hangers /rings etc

cheers

had a look at the safe climbing site, good stuff.

there is another excellent site you may hav seen or not

american safe climbing association

www.safeclimbing.org/area.index.htm

pretty exhaustive discussions on all things bolty

Hi guys,

Well at least Mike will be happy.

Oh, and a lot of others. I'm sure they will be good climbs.

The number to ring to book for the quarries is 9295 2244. Everyone going including children and non-climbers is supposed to be booked. The staff will give you the code current at the time. I'll get more info out asap

Cheers,

Toc.

Cheers,

Toc.

thanks for the beta Toc,goin to the wall tonite if your keen/

?

I wish. Got a meeting. Might get to Rockface on my way home.

Enjoy.

Ed! Feel free to contact me in regards to the re-bolting methods/equipment being used currently at the quarries. With respect to Sundays saga - although there were upset individuals at the quarry with repect to numbers, it was dissapointing to see how badly the situation was handled by climbers involved considering the previous years spent in harmony.

thanks richard, i'll go and have another look and climb and rap the line i was interested in and if it still looks reasonable I'll be in touch, just want to make sure if i do do somethng that the gears consistent with local best practice, was that you rebolting on sunday?

dont know the history of the palaver around abseilers/groups etc just seemed to be a very bizzare situation

never heard of booking crags before..

You and every other climber in WA as well. Might have been a small oversight on the part of the Department there. It's only the quarries that this applies to.

We will be talking about it with DEC but I'm not sure it's worth trying to change. At least you will know you can get your car in away from thieves. That's a heads up. With Churchman's we strongly suggest you make sure your car is obviously empty of anything of value.

Cheers,

Toc.

For those of us who weren't there Sunday . . . what happened? Do we all need to phone DEC now to book before heading to any of the quarries? Geez I hope not!

Hi Di,

I wasn't there, but this is the story I've got.

Several family groups were climbing in Mountain Quarry. An abseiling instructor decided his booking 4 people into the quarry gave him the quarry for the day, empty of other people. Words were exchanged. He called the Perth Hills National Park Centre several times. One of the climbers called me. A Department officer came out and spoke to the people concerned and told the climbers that "Yes, they should book," but that he was happy to see climbers there, just they should book. I rang him yeserday and he confirmed this and also that he's principally interested in diffusing the situation. I don't think this problem would have arisen with any other commercial operator, but there we are. It does appear we have to book ourselves into the quarries, but when you do, you get the gate code. There is a limit of 40 people whether climbing, abseiling or just standing in the sun but there wasn't 40 people at Mountain Quarry on Sunday. Boya Quarry is not affected only Statham's and Mountain Quarries. The original understanding was that commercial and similar groups booked and small recreational groups did not. We don't know when this changed and we don't why climbers weren't told because I can assure everyone, it was the first any of us had heard of it. Just another reason we are trying to talk to the department on a regular basis. There is a meeting next week between DEC representatives and CAWA and we will report on what happened. The number you have to ring for the quarries is 9295 2244, 9:00-4:30 weekdays and 10:00-4:00 weekends. Ring up and book at the gate if you like. There's no waiting, just they'll say no if there's more than 40 bookings.

Cheers,

Toc

the abseiling instructor also launched several coiled ropes off ther top of the crag without any warning right amongst climbers below.... i dont think he forgot to shout....

Yes Ed! You can contact me at richard.woodman@oxiana.com.au

This is an enormous step. We had free access to the quarries now they are restricted. Once booking is accepted conditions can be applied.

The instructor was aggressive, unreasonable, and not willing to discuss his issues in calm manner. In 12 years of climbing around the world, I have never come across anybody like this. Praise to the climbers present for keeping calm and avoiding further confrontation

FYI he took several photos of the new bolting and yelled out he had taken down all our regos....

A strange day. Important, please note the new booking of the quarries arrangement was apparently set by DEC (without informing anybody) before Sunday, its NOT a result of the events yesterday.

So who was this Abseiling operator? Do we get to find out so we can avoid him in the future or kept in the dark and just hope we don't have to share space with him?

the guy was wearing a yellow shirt with the business name, 'LIVING EDGE'

Enquiries have revealed that this is a de-registered organisation. The angry person's name is ALLAN GEORGE GREEN. At the time of the abuse and threats he was called Allan by one of the group he was with. He drives a White Nissan Patrol registration MJ-004 (blue private plates). please avoid any confrontations with the particular individual he has displayed agressive and violent tendencies towards other people with no apparent reason or cause.

a concern person

It should also be made clear that the above mentioned information is alleged....The incident did occur, there were witnesses and it is alleged to be the person mentioned.

just a missinformed individual. Who is maybe now a bit embarrassed. Without people like this we would never realise how tollerant and cool climbers are.

play nicely

Gordon

sounds like fertile ground for imaginative new route names

best name wins the lollipop

Hi Toc et al.,

I suggest that the CAWA position at the DEC meeting next week is simply that non-commercial individuals having to book quarries is not acceptable to CAWA. We can escalate this if they exhibit dictatorial tendencies; i.e. act without consulting user groups. The Margaret River Town Council came to grief with us over Wallcliffe 10 years ago on the same basis, when they got parochial. It's just not on.

Furthermore, our argument would be that the number of climbers in a quarry on weekend averages less than 10, so if the "carrying capacity" of a quarry is 40 then that leaves 30 places for commercial groups. Unlike individuals, commercial operators are able to book far ahead which makes the booking system not equitable, i.e. it advantages commercial groups.

The aggressive individual on Sunday should be pursued through the registration body for abseiling instructors, a letter of complaint, copy to DEC. He may lose his registration over it, throwing things on people's heads is VERY against the rules.

These things happen, that's why CAWA is here. Any concerned persons are welcome to volunteer for the CAWA committee in January!! CU at the AGM.

I don't know how other people feel about this but my thoughts are that we should refrain from making derogatory remarks about any individuals directly or indirectly on this site. As a body, we shouldn't be showing such a poor attitude even if we weren't at fault or in the wrong. Lets put the situation behind us and move on. Cheers

Richard, to be fair, I know that being derogatory doesn't solve anything at all, but if it were a choice between keeping quiet at Stathams and venting a bit on this website or the other way around, I commend the climbers involved! CAWA's purpose is also to support climbers, after all :-) I remember being at Stathams when a civilian was particularly rude and aggressive to a fellow climber and I was too frightened to say anything though I wanted to. The climber in question dealt with it very well, but afterwards thanked me sarcastically for the support :-/ I understand the need to vent (being a top rank 'venter'!) when you're involved in something like that.

The Waiver,

A copy of the endemnity form was sent to me. I'm no lawyer, but it looks like a form designed for commercial operators, ie people who have to have insurance for their clients, in other words, it is a form which transfers the liability from the department to the commercial operator for the operator's clients.

If you are a climber or an abseiler, no-one will insure you anyway, but if you are paying someone to take you out you have it, because the commercial operator has to provide it, and it is very expensive. DEC are just making sure commercial operators don't leave expensive babies in DECs lap.

So why do recreational climbers or anybody else for that matter have to sign it? We will be asking that question of DEC. My guess is, someone has missed the point, again.

In many ways I don't care about waivers as I wouldn't sue the department over a climbing accident, and I have had a serious accident with 5 months off work a few years ago and the accident was on department land. Nor would a climber win if it were a climbing accident, however, if a rope thrown by a person who had approval from the department to be on DEC land, landed on me and broke my neck I would certainly sue him and it might end up on DECs plate. It certainly isn't in the department's interest to have this sort of aggression occur.

It was suggested to a couple of us that CAWA make a formal complaint about this operator. I have spoken to the ranger concerned and will again. Philip Calais and I were to have a meeting next week with DEC representatives anyway and this will be on the agenda. Just a hint, you can always be sued for negligence and you can certainly be sued for causing harm deliberately, so try not to throw things at people.

Have fun guys, wish us luck next week.

Cheers,

Toc.

well put Toc

yep gotta kep the fun quotient high.. quarry tmorrow? the books can wait...

I wish.

Cheers,

Enjoy.

Good job Toc, All the best next week. I presume that until this has been resolved, that we not go to the quarries still ?

just a quick note to the access problem. Apparently now the dept will not worry about the Indemity forms until after they ahve had a meeting and discussed this so to access the quarries all you have to do is call and book. T/P 9295-2244 mon - fri 9 - 4.30 p.m. and sat - sun 10 - 4 p.m.

happy climbing all,

Toc did we have nay luck with the meeting on Wednesday with DEC ???

Philip Calais, George Firth and I had a two hour meeting with DEC representatives and a whole range of issues got discussed. Amongst the issues were the three places where crowding is likely in WA, the two quarries and Willyabrup. Nothing has been finalised yet but there are now people looking at it. They do want us to climb.

I'll definitely let everyone know when more comes to hand.

As to the commercial operator, we and they are trying to let bygones be bygones, but at the same time, DEC don't want him to repeat that behaviour. For those who want to know, by the way, forward abseils are not permitted on DEC land at all.

Cheers,

Toc.

Thanks Toc, The next question is Do we still need to book ? For instance this week Saturday and Sunday the quarry is full with a booking for 40 people each day 1 group each day. Now are we recreation climbers allowed to go there without booking ?

thanks mate

CAWA can only advise you to book. DEC's position is that the quarry can't support more than 40 people so they can't allow more than that.

I assume this is Mountain Quarry we are talking about. Have you been to Statham's yet? Boya isn't subject to booking either, but is not as user friendly. I would like you to stay alive.

Cheers,

Toc.

surely booking is not required. Any new policy to manage the quarries for the benefit of commercial interests at the expense of fifty years of free climbing access must be objected to and suspended.

thanks Toc......

Richard you got my support...

These issues are one of the exact reason why CAWA was originally formed. To represent the climbing community as a whole, against issues such as free access to all climbing venues. It has been that way for (as Richard said)50yrs, but the sad thing is that alot of the community can't find an extra $40+ a year to join up and put there money where there mouths are.

If it is for no other reason than to help maintain the free access to all areas that we use as climbers.

Peace:)

I don't think this was planned to be something that advantaged commercial operators against private individuals. It appears to be just to manage numbers. However as private people tend to decide the day before what they are going to do, commercial operators who decide sometimes months in advance, will always be able to book before us, should they be planning to do so. However they are then stuck with rainy weekends such as this one, where apparently 40 people will be in Mountain Quarry getting rained on, both Sunday and Saturday. We will be watching this one very carefully.

For what it's worth the 90 person limit at Willyabrup applies to commercial operators and groups and yes, CAWA is in this case a group, but small bunches of private climbers are not. As the commercial operators and other groups almost always are abseilling and the abseiling areas are limited in extent, climbers can usually fit in between them. Mind you there's some great climbing right where abseil operators commonly work. Unfortunately, we do have to live in the world with other people, but if we have to live with them, we can demand they live with us, if you know what I mean, and CAWA will be making the point that recreational climbers are there all the time and that the rights of business do not supercede the rights of recreation.

The other thing we will be watching is the actual useage of the quarries. I very strongly suggest that climbers try and keep their booking rates to actual useage and ringing up and cancelling should they decide to bail on any day, because I suspect overbooking so as to deny access to other groups is going to go down very, very badly. The gentleman who said he had booked the quarry, could not have done so. His party as I understand it consisted of only 5 people. I would hope that booking the quarry for forty people when you only have 5 would result in some sort of sanctions.

Cheers,

Toc.

Just an update to the booking situation at Mountain Quarry. I called today to book in for the weeke-nd and was informed that the quarry was booked for 40 people on Saturday and Sunday. Just out of quirosity I asked what about for the rest of the weekends for the month of November and was told it was booked for the whole month......

This is ridiculous and stops recreational climbers. Unless of course you just don't bother to book and go anyway.... I wonder what people will do, you don't have to be a mind reader.

To top this off 2 weeks ago the same situation, Saturday and sunday booked out and there was no groups there all week-end. bullshit I say.

Well has cawa made strong representations to abolish booking? That people should decide to make money out of the quarries by excluding the public isn't acceptable. in the rest of the world numbers are regulated by individuals. If the place is crowded people don't go. I could make a lot of money if I could book Cotteslowe beach and exclude everyone else.

I hope cawa isn't in any way supporting the booking system.

Correction to my comments. I have now managed to speak to the ranger and it has been discovered that the girl I had spoken to to make the booking was incorrect and gave me the wrong information.... Although groups can book in advance the quarry is now only booked out on the 18th, 25th november and now on the 02nd december.

I agree with you Richard if the quarry was full people wouldn't line up to have a climb they would go somewhere else. Maybe a $1 charge to all the people at cottelsoe beach would make someone rich over 1 summer

just a thought about this booking debacle.. given that a commerical group might use the quarry for say 6 hours does there booking cover all the hours of the day?

surely DEC has to understand the unique and historical use of the quarrys by climbers advocate on their behalf or does DEc oinly represent the commercial operators?

If ,as seems to be the case, DEC are favouring commercial over recreational users then I think the climbing community and all users of government lands should be very alarmed.

cheers

Hi everybody,

I emailed the department this morning and have a reply which says there are still opportunities for booking at Mountain Quarry in November.

I did point out that if Mountain Quarry has 40 people, it would be an unusual event and I will ring the ranger in the morning.

More later.

Cheers,

Toc.

Let's say the quarry is fully booked, all 40 people in there. If I were to go down (because I forgot/could not be bothered checking) and see that Hang Ten buttress, playboy wall and possibly skywalker all have people on them, that someone would mind a couple of climbers finding a route not in use and basically do our own thing while not getting in the way of "the groups"?

problem is Shannon , I have used that argument and they claim the capacity is for 40 people and they got this figure from the people who use the quarry apparently. even with 60 people, the quarry would not be full. Most of them abseil so they only use certain parts of the walls and they all can't be climbing at the same time. I believe they need to have bookings for commercial groups and recreational climbers should be allowed to go whenever.

This is all a bit of crap really.

I have had groups of abseilers in this quarry many times with numbers greater than 40. There was no drama. As abseiling instructors/operators etc we only use the nursery slope (next to playboy), the over hang and depending on the groups guts and ability, the big wall where the tree is at the top.

Correct me if i'm wrong but that leaves Bucket loads of the quarry free for climbers to play on. I've found that when climbers are in the quarry with groups of abseilers, they are a source of entertainment. The groups are amazed at what the climbers can do and many people walk out of that quarry with a better appreciation for the sport.

Excluding climbers that don't get in the way of abseilers is CRAP

wicked

Kris, great comments how about you give Jamie Ridley a call on T/P 9295-9136 he is the ranger in charge. He is a nice guy to talk to and told me yesterday they arrived at the number 40 by talking to all the groups that use the quarry.

Jamie is the person who looks after the quarries so PLEASE give him a call and tell him what you have said, especially if you are connected with a commercial operater.

many thanks...

thanks Kris, good to get some other perspective and perhaps it signals a way forward for this ridiculous sitution

some questions tho

1. did you need to book for your groups?

2. where you informed about limits on numbers?

it has always been my experience that commercial and recreational groups can very happily co-exist at any crag in the world (given a little sensible discussion) in fact where i come from it is not unusual to have several different commercial groups and many other rereational groups plying side by side without problem. And I agree that ofetn abseilers get a real kick out of watching climbing (and may get some motivation to try climbing as well)

The situation here is without precedence and is as you say CRAP

It seems that the DEC have made an ill informed judgement on a supposed recreational carrying capacity of an area without

1. actually assessing the real usage

2. discussing with the local climbing group

3. assessing any potential conflicts/hazards arising from usage

4. any understanding of the sport of rock climbing, its history, ethics and development

5. considering any increase in usage of the area as intrest in climbing (and commercial activity) grows

6. understanding that the commercial industry world wide has developed as a result of the sport of climbing... as evidence look no further then the use of climbing harness's and equipment, rigging techniques etc by commercial operators

7 considering the implications to the entire community of limiting access to crown lands for legitimate recreationalists... \

i would urge the commercial operators such as yourself to join with the recreational climbers in advocating DEC for an immediate change in the management of the quarrys so as to preserve and enhance recreational climbing opportunitys alongside the commericial operators

as a climbing family with two young children we have very limited time and opportunity to go climbing as a family. especially so in perth which has very limited climbing resources. the quarrys are perfect for us for a few hours every weekend, much safer then churchmans, convenient etc. it is unbelievably frustrating to be told that the quarrys are booked out by commercial operators which leaves us with no options for climbing.

The current system is CRAP

The booking system is ridiculous and should be SCRAPPED

I have been a guide and insturctor for over 20 years and have never anywhere in the world come across such a ludicrous system

as an aside being told that you cant abseil (face forward) on DEC land is RIDICULOUS. WHY not? WHY are DEC getting involved in the miutiae of technique? What expertise do DEC have in climbing? Who are DEC getting their advice from?

Whats going on....

i need a drink

i'm not booking

its bullshit

ED, you are the Messiah...... we will follow you.

Einstein could not have spoken more intelligent words then you have mate.

lets hope this gets sorted but I'm with you mate

Just a disclaimer.

I have ceased being an instructor about 2 years ago. I don't ever recall being told of the size limits.

Bookings were made as more of a courtesy and we certainly never got upset and "protective" when climbers were there.

We often set up simple top line climbs on the nursery slope as a direct result of climbers putting on a show for our clients.

When I'm on the CAWA committee next year I will make sure the booking system does not apply to recreational climbers. We (a) are not going to be the first in the world and (b) object to being bypassed as a user group without consultation. Now if you wordsmiths are actually prepared to do something more than write, then make sure you attend the AGM in January and are on the committee also. Actions speak loudest. Clear enough?

actions normally follow words eh? got to get a discussion going otherwise how do you know if actions are fair?

so sure thing see you at the agm, and in the meantime what do you suggest?

Ed, I belive Toc and some other commitee members had a meeting with the people high up in DEC and they went away and I believe are going to discuss the matter and get back to CAWA. Maybe a talk with Toc might help mate. Someone with your experience around the world might be able to help solve the situation with some intelligent advise to DEC.

Is this mentality going to flow on to other outdoor pursuits? Say I want to a day walk on the Bibulmun, do I have to book to assure my place so that I do not get in the way of the organised walks? Or the railway reserve trail just in case there happen to be too many riders on a particular day?

It is truly ridiculous for recreational climbers to have to book time in a public open space (especially seeing as much of the development was done by us). I have seen open space booked out on special occasions but not simply when an organised group feels like having an area to themselves.

Apart from the operator that caused the problems, what are the attitudes of the rest of the commercial groups in regard to sharing the quarries?

cheers

Shannon

exacterly whats next? booking for the beach, a walk .... people should be concerned

it would be very useful to hear from the operators

Oh God we have so much fun. 10:30 at night, half a bottle of wine, maths books all over the place, three quarters of a lap of Blackwall Reach earlier with Ed, (I fell in, hold broke, true story), life is great, but

there are people in the world who think their job is to regulate everything and everyone, there are others who know that micro-management is for other people with nothing better to do, preferably a long way from us.

We have some-one asking for bookings in the quarries, sorry, demanding bookings and indemnities while at Bluff Knoll, which is a fairly serious place, you write in a little book which some one will read later, if necessary, that's it.

Liability and litigation in Australia are a dogs breakfast. Just ask anybody who has organised a CAWA trip with people they've never met before, just wondering if this is the one where someone hurts themselves and sues everybody within a kilometre.

I sympathise with the person in the department who thinks that bookings are a good idea. They have to deal with people who will not take responsibility for themselves, but still want some sort of adrenalin experience. Some of these people are lucky enough to take up climbing, probably because they saw some climbers at the quarry when they were abseiling and thought that climbing was way cooler than abseiling. The other ones though, are scary. If something goes wrong, it's somebody elses fault and that somebody else will have to pay. Of course, they're not sure of which somebody else is at fault, but as long as they have money they will do. Unfortunately guys, these people are out there and the quarries are where we rub shoulders with them. DEC, unfortunately have to deal with them all the time.

I wouldn't mind if we had to book and sign an indemity form to go to the beach. Maybe the rest of Australia would then wake up and say, "Hey what happened to our country?"

By the way the bottle is almost gone.

I and others have spent more time than we could really afford in the last three months arguing for the right of people to do as they wish, in another forum, (yep, there's more than one front in this battle).

We do the best we can. I will keep doing the best I can, but I can't do it by myself, neither can anyone else.

This little rant started off as half a bottle and a thought, but it's ended up at a truth. If you think one person can solve this, you're dreaming, for those who ask, what's CAWA doing for me, well I'll tell you, some of us breaking our backs for you and you know what, I'm going to keep at it, because though I'm not a great climber and never will be, its the best game I've ever played.

End of bottle.

Cheers all.

Toc.

Being that it is a large fight, what can the average joe do to help Toc?

cheers to all that Toc

and yes the hold did break, i heard the 'snap' folowed by the splash and a lot of laughter

whch is the point really

A rave well spoken with an inspired passion, Toc. You and your wine bottle have nailed it. I can't get to the AGM but when I'm back end of Feb I'm in.